hummingbird ([info]unrequitedthai) wrote,
@ 2009-02-03 04:40:00
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two things: the tyranny of the oracular setting
Okay, so there's this thing about indie games, which I'm going to call the Oracle Syndrome.

This is most clearly evidenced in In a Wicked Age, but it exists elsewhere in many incarnations. Dogs does it. DRYH does it. Hell, Mist-Robed Gate does it. My essay here might look like I'm calling it a problem, but it's not. It's rather a demographic gap.

The Oracle Syndrome consists of building an imaginary world around a latticework of axioms and derivations. This is easy for the author because it requires way less work, and it has a lot of good play effects. It gets good player buy-in, and it gets people thinking about the setting. Those are cool! But there are things that it does well and things it does poorly.

I think it's pretty bad for any setting that you want to have any more than superficial internal logic. Making up stuff off-the-cuff means that you get this sedimentary collection of information about it, which means that it's impossible to create the sort of subtle details that exist in the real world or a well-developed fictional setting. If you don't know in session 1 that the camel herders of Mekhebe exist, then you're not going to have Mekhebese rugs on the floors of the mead-halls of Thord. You're not going to have anything interesting to learn about the world, because you're making it up as you go along. That's fine sometimes, but sometimes you really want to luxuriate in the richness of a setting that's already built for you, and Oracle Syndrome means that there isn't a lot of that going on in indie gaming.

You're also going to miss out on what I call the 'good detail,' which isn't just a detail, but one that's meaningful and valuable on multiple levels, expressed in beautiful words and full of information. This is kind of the opposite of the richness effect, because a good detail can live in solitaire, but I think it takes some time and good writing to get to them. Not everyone's a good writer, and there aren't a lot of people who can come up with good details on the spot (or ever), good writer or no. (Now that's another thing, which is that there are like maybe three good literary writers and maybe like two good technical writers in indie gaming (No, I'm not going to say who, but suffice it to say that I don't consider myself a member of either set.) and that means we've got a very low bar on writing.)

So in short I think that there's a gap in our setting writing here, and it creates a gap in our play, and the fact that we don't do this writing work (And here I want to say that I'm putting my pen where my ...pen... is, and actually writing a big ol' rich setting, to fill that gap.) allows us to get away with slovenly prose and worse, because people will just read your rules anyway if you write like a knuckle-dragging subprimate, but they won't let you do that with setting, which is essentially fiction and thus requires better presentation to maintain engagement or focus.

The buy-in effect oracular setting also has a flipside: you need bought-in players to make it work, because creating takes a little more work than consuming, and generally players need to learn the system of axioms and derivational processes to get the oracle working: a system that is rarely communicated sufficiently through the text. There's a greater burden for education from the author (and part of this is because the 'mainstream' gaming tradition has really strong transmission of the processes you need to work with rich setting), and I feel like this burden is not always sufficiently carried. This isn't great.

This is an unfinished thought. I'll get father with it later.

edit: uh thing 2 was gonna be about izumo but i'll write it later i gotta do other stuff



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[info]foreign_devilry
2009-02-03 02:14 pm UTC (link)
Shreyas, I think your criticism makes sense, but I also think both indie and traditional roleplaying games are really, really poor at figuring out how to 1) transmit setting content into the brains of players and then 2) teaching the players how to transmit that from their brains to each other at the table. Having the players invent it themselves is one solution that I think we continue to get better at, but I really don't see how traditional games do this better. Personally, I'm not going to read 20+ pages of poorly written setting material anymore, y'know? Especially since most of that will surely go out the window once play begins.

One possible solution, in my mind, is licensed content: building on setting material that is already shared amongst the players. For example, it would be dead easy for me to drop an interesting detail into an Avatar: The Last Airbender game because there's so much shared background already. Now, it's unlikely we can commercially publish such a game, but surely we can noncommercially publish it, right?

The other solution is, like you say, learning to write better or working with people who do, which moves away from the indie game designer as auteur model and more towards, uh, the Burning Wheel HQ.

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[info]unrequitedthai
2009-02-03 05:27 pm UTC (link)
Well, let me remind you that I'm not excusing bad writing here. Bad writing is terrible and I don't know why us indie game people get away with it so often.

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[info]brand_of_amber
2009-02-03 05:30 pm UTC (link)
Because you don't have to justify yourself to editors who can make you not get printed if you don't measure up.

Also, because your standards are low.

I, personally, have nothing to do with this. I am perfect and an exemplar of qyalita at ell tymmes. This is why I say "you" instead of "us."

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[info]charlequin
2009-02-03 05:40 pm UTC (link)
The idea that "anyone can do it!" generally trumps pretty effectively over the idea that "not everyone should," or perhaps the more nuanced and fair "but everyone should try to do the parts of it they can bring something interesting and worthwhile to the table in." I think the auteur model (and the fact that writing, like singing, is a skill that superficially "anyone can do") encourages people to try handling the writing themselves even when they don't really have any business doing so.

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[info]brand_of_amber
2009-02-03 05:42 pm UTC (link)
Have you been reading "The Playwright as Thinker" again?

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[info]charlequin
2009-02-03 06:14 pm UTC (link)
No, but apparently I should!

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[info]unrequitedthai
2009-02-03 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I missed an important point here: "Most of that will surely go out the window once play begins."

Holy bejeezus why?

I mean, if you're always going to play every game with that assumption in your mind, then yes, you don't need prebuilt settting and yes, you aren't going to benefit from it, but why on earth is that a thing you assume for every context?

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[info]foreign_devilry
2009-02-03 06:26 pm UTC (link)
I think it has to do with the way setting is usually written. It's very rare that I encounter setting material in a game that's better then stuff my group could come up with on their own, right? I mean, in indie games, I can think of very few exceptions (Dogs, Hot War, How We Came to Live Here, Thou Art But a Warrior, Blossoms). The best of those games also provide a way for you to take the cool stuff you see in the book and make it happen at the table, instead of leaving the hardest part up to you. But yeah, this is still me agreeing with you that most setting sucks, I guess. I haven't fully switched over into "trying to actually be helpful" mode yet.

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[info]benlehman
2009-02-03 03:16 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, basically.

I don't think that the solution to this is "plan it all out ahead of time," though.

yrs--
--Ben

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[info]unrequitedthai
2009-02-03 05:25 pm UTC (link)
Well, I guess we could all "never really finish our games" but then what would we play?

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[info]benlehman
2009-02-03 08:08 pm UTC (link)
Nah.

It's just that, like, reading a book of setting material? Boring.

yrs--
--Ben

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[info]unrequitedthai
2009-02-03 10:06 pm UTC (link)
That's, uh, not universally true.

See, there's this whole, thriving genre of expensive, beautiful young peoples' coffeetable books, and fandom coffeetable books of similar kind, like Dragonology, The Way Things Work, all those visual encyclopedias of like Egypt or Star Wars or whatever, the Froud fairy books, etc etc a million times.

They're essentially books full of nothing but setting material.

Those things are hella fun to read.

The fact that RPG setting material isn't fun to read is a direct consequence of our shitty writing.

Edited at 2009-02-03 10:07 pm UTC

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[info]benlehman
2009-02-03 10:10 pm UTC (link)
I find those books almost universally boring as shit to read.

You're doing the thing where you go "hey, here's a problem, hence everyone must do things the way I want them to right now!" Which is dumb.

yrs--
--Ben

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[info]unrequitedthai
2009-02-03 10:16 pm UTC (link)
Ben, don't be a girlhole. "There's a gap" isn't equivalent to "Everyone change what they're doing!" Learn to read.

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[info]nikotesla
2009-02-04 10:41 pm UTC (link)
I love the shit out of books like that and own a lot of them.

The issue is one of craft, and you bring up a very solid point.

People who can draw/photograph/collage well should be in charge of those parts.

People who write should be in charge of those parts.

People who can design rules should be in charge of those parts.

It certainly makes sense. Using those skills in appropriate proportion will, by nature, make good art. The challenge is that this requires a *budget*. I might be willing to share ownership with people as a method of payment, and if I can find appropriate craftspeople to do such stuff, maybe that could work.

The key, then, is to come up with setting from which you can pull elements to combine in order to generate situation. We know what makes a situation: Protagonist(s), Antagonist(s), a setting in which they reside, and a moral boundary that at least one of those characters has crossed. A book full of those, connected by a background, and supported by rules of agreement (for altering the setting, for resolving conflict, whatever) would be a pretty bitchin' game to publish. It would also be a beautiful thing.

When put in combination with Judd's Dictionary of Mu idea — adding actively to the Dictionary as your group discovers new things — it could be *really* powerful.

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[info]brand_of_amber
2009-02-03 03:55 pm UTC (link)
Yep.

I've talked about this in the past, specifically about historical RP. (Which I know you hate and shit, but give me a minute, okay?)

When you play a historical game where you mostly just make it up as you go, or oracle it, or simple sentence it, then what you get is a pastiche of history, a shallow collection of everyone's highschool history tropes. That they tend to be full of imperialistic, colonial, racist bullshit is just an added layer of not-fun.

I think one of the things a lot of IaWA fans forget is that the oracles were first known as "cheap and cheesy" back in the day. And while all IaWA games aren't cheap and cheesy, there is an acknowledgment there that we're not exactly writing The Satanic Verses here.

The thing is I'm unsure how to fix this. As Ben says, I don't think planning it all out is a great answer. Nor do I think you should have to have a degree in history to play a good historical game. My gut tells me that we're going to need a mix of things: some pre planning, some education, some good mechanics and support....

I think that one of the things to do for historical games is to set up a situation with the mechanics of the game where the historical pressures that you're interested in exploring are mirrored in the system. Blossoms, for Burning Wheel (yes, I know you hate the Wheel), does some of this. Between the game setup, the lifepaths, and the emotional attributes there is a way in which the game sets up for a historical Japan game that isn't just a collection of cheap tropes nor a detailed setting that must be pre-read. It doesn't fully escape either trap, but it falls less into them than many.

Also, I'd like to talk about this with you vis a vis Dharma and Defiance -- but I'd rather do that via chat or email.

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[info]unrequitedthai
2009-02-03 05:34 pm UTC (link)
So, like, when I say I care about settings, I think I say a different thing than what you say when you say it. (I'm just picking up on your usage of 'historical pressures' here.) I'm pointing at a particular sensory experience, the thing that lets Aerin know she's in Damar, not the thing that helps you understand why Damar is at war with the people to the north and are they really demons or just funny-looking people? (The answer is that they are really demons.)

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[info]brand_of_amber
2009-02-03 05:40 pm UTC (link)
Hmm.

I like both. And I think they inform each other. I think that more than anything its our different understandings of social construction or something like that.

But yes, that sensory detail is important, and is something the underlying structural elements will not help you convey.

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[info]opticalbinary
2009-02-03 06:25 pm UTC (link)
Dear Brand,

You are smart.

Your pal,
E

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(Deleted post)

[info]brand_of_amber
2009-02-03 05:29 pm UTC (link)
I think there is also something about the cliche and the specific going on.

That is to say, a lot of fantasy settings are pretty cliche. At the points at which they're cliche, oracle stuff works fine for them. Really, I don't need to read 50 pages about your awesome Conan-esque barbarians when I already know it all because its all cliche measured out with a thin dash of specific names trying to make it sound authentic.

But the really magical fantasy settings aren't that. Oh, there may be elements of that, but there is also a lot more poetic depth and ethical reach to them.

But a lot of RPGers seem to think of fantasy more as the previous. Much RP is so cliche anyway that if you've never read or, more important, played in a detailed and rich setting that isn't just Tolkien with new names, then its hard to see why it matters.

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[info]charlequin
2009-02-03 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Efficiently emulating cliche tropes is one of the places that indie gaming has pretty clearly succeeded head and shoulders above traditional gaming.

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[info]brand_of_amber
2009-02-03 05:41 pm UTC (link)
I'd rather play IaWA than Conan, or Mist Robed Gate than Feng Shui any day.

However, I've yet to see an Indie Tribe 8 or Tekumel. (Unless you count Glorantha, which I don't.)

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[info]foreign_devilry
2009-02-03 06:31 pm UTC (link)
I also think oracles could be a lot more sophisticated than we've seen already. I really wish people would stop implementing them more or less as they've been implemented before (a new and diffrent setting!) and pushed them a bit further. I mean, oracles are kinda like the cultural-specific Keys in TSOY, yeah? They give you a bit of Game Designer-authored content to shove into your play. There are clearly hundreds of possible ways in which you could do that.

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[info]charlequin
2009-02-03 07:18 pm UTC (link)
They could be, but even escalating them to the umpteenth level still leaves Oracles as, fundamentally, a tool for creating setting (or possibly "setting") out of a a "how does this fit together" process on a bunch of essentially unrelated, random inputs. A tool for generating setting content that's based around human intuition of how things fit together naturally would, I think, have to look completely different.

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[info]foreign_devilry
2009-02-03 07:57 pm UTC (link)
My response to you was much too long, so I posted about it instead:
http://thouandone.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/oracles-piecing-out-content/

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[info]charlequin
2009-02-03 05:30 pm UTC (link)
I think you'll find that most of your response to this point in the community will be of the form "those details aren't important/I don't understand why you think they are/the difference isn't really significant like you say it is."

Getting past that, I think you'll get a lot of "but TRAD games don't do it well EITHER so it's really more of like an unachievable Holy Grail or something" which I think is a false equivalence, since trad games do it at all, to varying degrees of success that are heavily group-dependent and therefore largely non-transferrable, while generally speaking the games you reference above function by not attempting it at all. (This is distinct from Jonathan's response in its desire to use this equivalence as a way to dismiss further consideration rather than to explore deeper.)

I don't believe that "making it all up in advance" is exactly the right solution either, especially through the upfront info-dump strategy -- nobody does ever read setting info upfront anyway. I think, instead, there's an immersion (I mean this in like the language-learning sense and not whatever borked sense gamers are using it in now) approach -- you drop people in, they play with the toys, and they slowly discover the structure of where they are (maybe even in a special prologue just designed to introduce it to them, without the normal character concerns).

The resistance you'll get to this is pretty much going to come down to two things: it inherently takes well to being used in long-term, same-setting play (which belies the indie conventional wisdom that long-term play is just short-term play that keeps going longer than it should), and it still requires some non-zero and non-all-encompassing distribution of actual human intelligence to manage and invent these details and relate them between one another (which belies the indie conventional wisdom that GMs don't actually bring anything unique to the table in a trad setting and, more importantly, that skill can be excised from the equation in favor of clever system design.)

(BTW, this distinction is exactly why I enjoy Dogs, MRG, and other games that use the Oracle approach to handle something that's already narratively slippy and vague like a fairy tale or a historical record viewed from the present, but really just can't stand IAWA at all.)

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[info]locke61dv
2009-02-03 10:10 pm UTC (link)
IME, the game text (especially in the first time you're playing a game) is only read by the GM and maybe another person or two that have real buy in. If the text is just rules, and the rules are otherwise communicated, then the game can still be mostly communicated. I worry about the full breadth of a setting being less easily communicated second-hand.

Of course, this could be a factor of the quality of writing.

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[info]brand_of_amber
2009-02-03 11:13 pm UTC (link)
Probably. Also a factor of the "As an individual I find games I want to play then try to sell them to the group" mode of finding and getting to play RPGs -- which seems to be the default and most common mode.

Really, if you've one guy who really loves a setting and four others who just want to play "something cool" its hard to get everyone to have equal buy in. And yet most books are written with the assumption that one (maybe two) people will really read and know the setting, and everyone else will know (maybe) their little part.

Or to shorten: We sell games to individuals, despite the fact that they're played by groups.

Of course, I've no idea at all how to fix that.

(But I do know in the rare cases where I've had a group where everyone knew the setting well the amount of detail and vividness has been unmatched by any other game, ever. Even those where we made up the setting oracle or as we went along style.)

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[info]unrequitedthai
2009-02-03 11:24 pm UTC (link)
Addendum:

I find that in trad games I buy, I'm much more likely (say, 90% vs 60%) to read the setting material vs. the rules material, whereas in indie games the odds are the reverse and often worse (like 40% of reading setting material).

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[info]joepub
2009-02-04 03:51 pm UTC (link)
So, with the dragonology, et al books...

I own: Goblins, The Zombie Survival Guide, The Monster Hunter's Handbook, World War Z and a few other "real accounts of fictional things" type books.

They are interesting to me. But I have a very specific way of reading them. I take one off the shelf, flip it open (seemingly at random), read a passage or section, and put it away.

I do not seek to connect the good details (which it possesses).
I seek simply to find a few good details and take them with me.

Is that an appropriate way to digest the non-Oracle setting material you talk of? The one-page approach?

Or would me doing that to this kind of stuff you're looking for make you gouge your eyes out?

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[info]sirogit
2009-02-04 08:25 pm UTC (link)
I agree with most of your points, but you don't make a very strong case for 'detailed setting = better game/fiction'. More fun to read book, more impressive as a writer... but I don't see how this makes the actual playing better.

My opinion on setting details is that they by and large work good for a single story. Let's take Star Wars for example. Lets both pretend that Star Wars is a deep and great story for the purpose of this example. The series of movies builds on all this jedi buisness and this belief in a rumored power - but its not very interesting unless the story is about Luke, who is doing all this heavy stuff about The Force. When you try to tell a Star Wars story that doesn't involve the characters who are really pivotal for the setting details, you get a bunch of ugly clunking about with Ewoks and Han-Salo-Wannabes. Nobody wants ugly clunking about with Ewoks and Han-Salo-Wannabes.

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